In this exclusive interview with Michigan Chronicle senior editor Bankole Thompson, Detroit City Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel opens up about the mounting federal probe of corruption in city hall, the investigation that made her visit the offices of the FBI. She denies any rumors that she took bribes. She also denied that she cut a deal with the Feds in exchange for not seeking re-election. She indicated that she could be called to testify should
any of the cases make it to federal court. She also said Monica Conyers
should not resign unless she has been indicted.

MICHIGAN CHRONICLE: Interim U.S. Attorney Terry Berg has said his office would not be rushed in these investigations, that they would take their time. What is your reaction in light of what you’ve said about hoping this would end soon?

SHEILA COCKREL: I understand why somebody might feel the need to do that. I mean, that’s pretty unusual to have the level of media involvement with persons who are under investigations being so available to the media themselves. It changes, I would think, all the dynamics around how you conduct the investigations. So this has been an unusual investigation to begin with. I certainly do know there is a great sense of unease that I hear from people in the community, a desire to have the shoe drop, if you will, and let’s get this behind us. I pick up a sense from people of an inability to really see a new future until this issue is resolved. There is a profound level of corruption in city government, and people want to move on from it. It’s hard to do that until the investigation is completed and people are charged
or not.

Detroit City Council member Sheila Cockrel maintains her innocence.  Photo- Andre Smith photos

MC: When the news first came out that there was some federal surveillance with regard to the appearance of impropriety as far as the sludge deal was concerned, you and your lawyer went to the feds. Explain.

SC: What happened was I started hearing rumors in the streets that I was one of the people that the feds were investigating. First I dismissed it as misinformation from political enemies because you get a few of those in Detroit politics. Over a period of about five or six days it kept coming back. I called Mark Kriger and said, “Mark, call the feds please and tell them that I’d like an appointment. I want to know what’s going on.” He and I met and he said to me, “I will get you what’s called the Kastigar letter,” a letter that says as long as I am telling the truth I’m not going to be charged. It’s the first step toward getting immunity. I said, “Mark, I don’t want a Kastigar letter.” I don’t want a promise I’m not going to be charged because I haven’t done anything wrong.

MC: You did not take any bribe?

SC: No. This is a public trust and as an elected official I feel an obligation to simply go in and say, “What’re you talking about and let me tell you the truth.” So I did that and it is intimidating. I mean, I did go in the ’60s with
J. Edgar Hoover and COINTELPRO and I had a red squad file from the Detroit surveillance unit and the Michigan State Police file back in the day. So it is not usually organic for me to say let’s pop into the Feds and have a chat.

MC: You said you did not take bribes. Why did you see the need to go to the Feds?

SC: Because I want to clear up the rumors. I shouldn’t really discuss the conversation but there were things that have been said about me that I needed to hear and respond to. Let me say there are people walking around this city who I see from time to time and cannot let them know that I do know some of the things that were said. I can’t wait till can I give those people a piece of my mind.

MC: After your meeting with the Feds, it was abundantly clear that you were not a target in the investigation?

SC: Yes, I was not a target.

MC: Then why did the grand jury bring you in?

SC: Basically they subpoenaed my records. I keep very good files and so I believe part of what they wanted was to authenticate the process whereby
matters got considered by the council. If you are a target, they don’t bring you before the grand jury because then you can ask for immunity.

MC: How many days did it take you to testify as a witness?

SC: It was part of an afternoon.

MC: So you just made one appearance?

SC: Yes.

MC: Is this what culminated in your decision not to seek reelection?

SC: No. Let’s put it this way. I never in my entire life thought I would be responding to a rumor that I had taken bribes. There is nothing more
troubling to me than to even have to face the allegation. My decision really has to do with what’s good for me personally, what’s good for my family. To do this job right it is very demanding, very time consuming, the level of preparation that’s required. And certainly you can only for so long talk to a senior who’s sitting in their home at night terrified that they are going to be
broken into because the street lights are out. You work to get the street lights on so they get on. But since the system is broken you can’t keep them on. But we are prepared as political leadership in this city to continue to try to put bandages on cancer, if you will, as opposed to addressing some of these core issues. I really believe that at this juncture in the city of Detroit, people don’t care whether the city is running a lighting department
or some other entity, the lights need to work and they can’t cost a fortune. But we don’t even address those issues, we just keep up this cycle.

MC: In light of all that is happening, people are saying there needs to be a clean sweep of council. Do you agree?

SC: No. Frankly, I think that would be foolish. There is a sanity caucus on the City Council.

MC: Who are the sanity caucus members?

SC: People who I think specifically do a good job — Ken Cockrel Jr., Kwame Kenyatta, Alberta Tinsley-Talabi. There are people in my judgment who understand what comes with making a decision, not to have had a history of being a political activist, but understand that when you take an oath of office and you become an elected official, there is a balancing that has to happen. There is an approach to making policy decisions that
has to occur. I think there are some folks who do a really good job.

MC: Everyone here is presumed innocent until proven guilty as the rule of law dictates. But there is a strong perception that all we see in city hall is pay to play politics, that you have to pay before you get things done. Since being a council member has this been evident in your case?

SC: I have never ever been offered a bribe. Because here is what will happen had that ever occurred. I would have gone down immediately to 211 W. Fort Street (U.S. Attorney’s Office) and said, “Mr. U.S. Attorney,
Madam FBI Agent, I was just offered this bribe.” To me it’s just inconceivable that there is allegation that people actually sold their vote.

MC: Is that unusual at City Council?

SC: I’ve never personally experienced it. There were allegations relative to (late councilwoman) Kay Everett, there was a situation with (now imprisoned councilman) Lonnie Bates. But let me say this. I think it is wrong to call for the resignation of Monica Conyers or anybody else before there is even been a charge.

MC: Why?

SC: Because this is the rule of law. There is a presumption of innocence. This is not even been at the point where somebody is being charged. There is rumor, there is conversation, but at the point where charges are laid and
someone makes plea, that’s a different discussion. As I did when Kwame Kilpatrick was charged at that point, I called for his resignation. I will do
the same thing in this circumstance for any member of this body. At the point that you are charged, because of the nature of the public trust and
the social contract you should have as an elected official, I believe that if you are charged you should step down.

MC: The City Council is under a serious heavy cloud. How do you get out of it if you’re saying there shouldn’t be a clean sweep?

SC: I think you bring in a mix of new blood and bring back some of the folks with experience and you build a new team. We have all these
conversations about all the reforms that need to happen. The first reform we need in my opinion is that the president and president pro tem of the
City Council, like most legislative bodies, the leadership is chosen by the members and not by the people who get the most votes because it changes
the dynamics.

MC: So you don’t have faith in the current council leadership?

SC: I wouldn’t say that. I would say that one of the people in council leadership would have been selected by the members and one would
not. But I think as a matter of public policy and good government, you would get a different dynamic. Then at the point that the council president goes to the mayor and says “Look, Mr. Mayor, the council has concerns
about X, Y and Z,” it’s logical to assume that when that person is coming they are speaking for a caucus, a majority of council. Everybody basically
speaks for themselves on everything. Maybe it’s time to think about council, not a full-time position. If you have council as a part-time position,
council meets in the evening, formal session once a week, it might open council to people who are not going to be available on a full-time basis. Other cities work very well with nonfull- time councils.

MC: How would you rate the performance of the Detroit City Council in this decade?

SC: Overall my experience is that over time it’s been more valleys than peeks. The last term was sort of the beginning when I saw a significant
change. Each term I give great thought on whether or not to run again.

MC: Would have made your decision not to seek reelection in the absence of this federal investigation?

SC: It’s hard to say. It could have gone either way. I’m more concerned about my sense that there needs to be another way to be part of the
discussion to bring about the kind of structural change the city needs. I’ve tried from this spot and only been able to go so far. To me there is a bullet
train coming at this city at 150 miles an hour. Maybe there is a way to have folks see that the train is coming. We’ve got to do things differently.

MC: So it’s not a situation like there is fire on the mountain and Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel is running away from the fire?

SC: No. I don’t feel that way. I’ve lived in this city for 61 years. Had my husband (Ken Cockrel Sr.) lived and become mayor of this city, I would have had a non-elected, non-appointed role that would have been really important.

MC: You’ve testified before the grand jury. You are in the loop. How long is this investigation going to take?

SC: My experience is that the U.S. attorneys and the federal agents are a very tightlipped group. What I’m in the loop for is the gossip loop.

MC: But you are also a grand jury witness.

SC: Yes, but that doesn’t mean a lot. What I have access to is a community of lawyers, many of whom were very close friends of my late husband who practice in the federal bar. They know how to read the tea
leaves. From those gentlemen the impression I get is that it’s very soon.

MC: Would you be called to testify if any of these major cases in city hall makes it to federal court?

SC: I have no idea.

MC: But it can happen?

SC: Yes.

MC: If the federal government is able to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt that these individuals whose names are being put out here
are guilty, should the City of Detroit then revisit some of the major contracts it approved in the last five years?

SC: I think that’s fair question. Let’s see what happens regarding indictments. All the focus is on Synagro and council.

MC: So what standards should be set?

SC: I think an overhaul of the contracting process. A total overhaul of how we manage grants. Both of those areas need to be looked at and potentially handled in different manners. But at the end of the day tone is set at the top. If organizations know that the people at the top have expectations of integrity and fair practices, it’s not pay to play or friends and families that goes right down through the organization.

MC: The Feds reportedly visited Councilwoman Barbara- Rose Collins during the Synagro investigation. She came out after your announcement
that she was not seeking reelection. The public perception is, what’s going on here? Did these two council members cut a deal?

SC: Well, I know some of the sources of that. And they are no good lowdown opportunists who do have lots of things to hide. I don’t know
what Barbara-Rose’s reasons are. I literally stand on my record and on my history. I frankly think had I decided to run I would have been re-elected
with a lot of votes. This is my choice. It comes with the territory. The rumors, innuendo, there is some garbage that is been reported on one of the morning talk shows that I had some huge bill with the water department. It’s utter fiction.